Same-Sex Marriage and Equality

Same-Sex Marriage and Equality

Same-Sex Marriage and Equality

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Is Same-sex Marriage about equality? Does fairness dictate same-sex marriage? Greg Koukl answers.

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39 thoughts on “Same-Sex Marriage and Equality

  1. TheLaughingOut

    Marriage has always been whatever people define it as. Many states banned non-white people from marrying. Interracial marriage only became fully legal in 1967 when they *gasp* again changed the definition of marriage. Before that people would argue that black people had equal rights because they were allowed to marry whoever they wanted within their own race, just like white people.
    Creepy, huh, how bigots repeat the same crap over and over?

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  2. Matt Young

    No real reason to add to the flame war, but this clip just made me so sad.

    I've never understood why someone is so threatened by a love story that has literally nothing to do with them. In their eyes, there are shitty marriages around everywhere (high divorce rates, celebrity marriages, broken homes, etc.) and they take pride in their lasting marriages. Adding a few more ones they deem inappropriate to the pot only makes theirs more special.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  3. Cris Putnam

    Not only is it not simply a Christian tradition it's not a tradition at all, it is grounded in the creation order. Go back and listen to the video from 9 minutes on. Marriage is something we describe – not define. Same sex marriage is NOT the same sort of thing as male female because it does not serve the natural purpose of bringing children in the world. It is quite obvious that there is biological order to life and marriage serves the purpose of family units.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  4. EPRVa62

    @keesurt It is not an exclusive christian tradition. Are non- christian opposite sex couples who want to marry forbidden to do so because they are not christian? Of course not. Furthermore, examples of traditional "marriage" in the bible leave a lot to be desired to say the least: multiple wives, concubines, incest etc etc etc.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  5. EPRVa62

    @keesurt EVERY marriage license in the history of this country has been issued by an entity of the GOVERNMENT.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  6. Alexis Chervony

    @EPRVa62

    You guys throw those words around so much it means nothing anymore.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  7. EPRVa62

    @yarrido This is the same rationale Virginia attempted to use in defense of it's anti-miscegenation law-no one was being denied their right to marry-they just had to marry someone of the same color. Unbelievably ridiculous then and now.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  8. EPRVa62

    " Gays want respect and affirmation just like straights" What a concept!

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  9. EPRVa62

    "It sounds bigoted and mean-spirited" because IT IS bigoted and mean-spirited.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  10. queenrage1

    Wow! This was pretty insightful. I didn't realized that was the core issue. Good job for breaking this down, for me!

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  11. JeremiahA40

    A Pew Research Center survey found that sixty-nine percent of Americans say that "having a father in the home is essential to a child's happiness. Only a slightly higher share (74%) says the same about having a mother in the home." The importance of this indicator cannot be stressed enough due to same-sex marriage automatic denial of a father or a mother to a child.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  12. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40
    "And same-sex marriage is not a rights issue."
    This is the core of our disagreement. The 8 court cases I quoted earlier were decided based of rights of citizens. As more gays get married, we'll see what happens.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  13. Profmth Mitch

    @JeremiahA40 "These inherent [functional, psychological, and physiological differences] differences are the components of marriage and are, thus, relevant."

    LOL. OK.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  14. JeremiahA40

    @mystercy1 I do agree with you that the acts and beliefs of the Westboro Baptist church are heretical, extreme, and troubling.

    That being said, the secular and religious arguments for supporting marriage are not "pretending." For example, the automatic denial of a father or a mother to a child is not "pretending," but a serious problem.

    And disemboweling marriage of its normative content is not a major improvement on the institution.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  15. JeremiahA40

    @mystercy1 Well, every group in the world has been ostracized, criminalized, and persecuted at one time or another. This is a global phenomena.

    I am not sure what you mean by "frivolous persecutions." Stating that murder is wrong, or other moral truths, does not appear frivolous to me.

    And the very notion of equal rights is grounded in Judeo-Christian values so I do not know how you came to your conclusion about slavery.

    And same-sex marriage is not a rights issue.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  16. JeremiahA40

    @ProfMTH "Same-sex couples are just another type of infertile couple and can certainly "sustain a healthy marriage culture by their example as" married couples."

    I would agree with you if there were no functional, psychological, and physiological differences between the genders. (If there truly were no differences, the terms "marriage," "same-sex marriage, "heterosexual," and "homosexual" would be meaningless.) These inherent differences are the components of marriage and are, thus, relevant.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  17. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40
    When you are ostracized and criminalized and persecuted for thousands for years how can you expect society to allow you to participate in any of their institutions? Religion has had an iron grip on the world's laws and it is only now that we are no longer bound by their frivolous persecutions. Religion justified slavery until it could no longer fight the notions of human rights. This may be the final step in removing the barriers we have built to explicitly deny rights to all.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  18. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40
    The homophobia I'm referring to is the one the fuels the Westboro Baptist church. The kind that has given people the justification to beat them up and enact laws against them. As a society we need to stop this tacit endorsement of this shameful injustice. It is far more important than pretending a thousands-year old institution will fall apart when we are more inclusive of its participants. Freedom to marry who you chose is a major improvement to the institution.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  19. Profmth Mitch

    @JeremiahA40 "Infertile couples promote and help sustain a healthy marriage culture by their example as a married couple."

    Same-sex couples are just another type of infertile couple and can certainly "sustain a healthy marriage culture by their example as" married couples.

    "The fact that many lie unread…doesn’t mean they were not destined for higher purpose."

    So, let's be honest: the ability and willingness to procreate is actually irrelevant; it only gets invoked to exclude…

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  20. JeremiahA40

    @ProfMTH Part 3

    First, I would not characterize invasive medical tests-for example, transrectal and scrotal ultrasound-and questions on sexual habits, menstruation, and son on as "administrative inconvenience."

    Second, in your question, you assume that the natural teleology of marriage would be frustrated. It would not.

    And I am sorry this was so long!

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  21. JeremiahA40

    @ProfMTH Part 2

    "In the same way, the natural tie of marriage to procreation is not nullified…Marriage still is what it is even if its essential purpose is never actualized. The exceptions prove the rule, they don’t nullify it. Marriage is intrinsically about and for children."-Greg Koukl

    "…administrative inconvenience is a reason to allow the "natural teleology" of marriage to be frustrated?"

    1 in 10 American couples are diagnosed with infertility yet fully half eventually have a child.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  22. JeremiahA40

    @ProfMTH Part 1

    Infertile couples promote and help sustain a healthy marriage culture by their example as a married couple.

    "…they are necessarily thwarting the ultimate goal of marriage…"

    Greg Koukl addressed this. "Books are written by authors to be read, even if large ones are used as doorstops or discarded ones help ignite campfires. The fact that many lie unread…doesn’t mean they were not destined for higher purpose."-Greg Koukl

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  23. Profmth Mitch

    @JeremiahA40 "infertile couples promote and help sustain a healthy marriage culture"

    By failing to be ordered to the "natural teleology" of marriage? How so? On Mr. Koukl's definition, they are necessarily thwarting the ultimate goal of marriage, its telos, i.e., "to make a family [i.e., children]."

    "discovering infertile couples in many cases would be extremely invasive"

    So, administrative inconvenience is a reason to allow the "natural teleology" of marriage to be frustrated?

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  24. JeremiahA40

    @ProfMTH "So, why allow sterile heterosexuals to marry?"

    Well, first, infertile couples promote and help sustain a healthy marriage culture in a society, which is greatly needed in our weakened marriage culture in the U.S.

    Secondly, discovering infertile couples in many cases would be extremely invasive. It would require medical testing, as well as a legal oath to procreate after being granted a marriage license, so it would push couples away from marriage.

    And so on.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  25. Profmth Mitch

    @JeremiahA40 Mr. Koukl says marriage = "the union of a man & a woman for a long period of time in a stable relationship to make a family [i.e., children]." He goes on to say that because same-sex couples "don't make kids," they are necessarily excluded from marriage). On Mr. Koukl's definition then–the one you opined "hits every nail straight on the head"–the desire & ability to procreate is the bright line between who may and may not marry. So, why allow sterile heterosexuals to marry?

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  26. JeremiahA40

    @mystercy1 Yes, there have been variations in the number of partners, who was allowed to marry, etc. However, variations on a theme does not mean that there has been no theme. Throughout human history, marriage has always been between men and women. In other words, in spite of the variations, spouses have always been both male and female. Marriage has a fixed, natural teleology.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  27. JeremiahA40

    @mystercy1 "Denying gays the right to marry is fueled by this. Any blog comments concerning same-sex marriage is filled with this sentiment."

    Thank you for your clarification. The problem with "homophobia" is the numerous definitions, and how it is employed as a simple ad hominem attack (name calling). One definition-"the fear of making a statement that could possibly offend a homosexual or the homosexual political movement."

    Anyway, the fuel for the support of marriage is not irrational fear.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  28. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40 "Society recognized marriage and set up laws to protect what already existed. Marriage and families construct culture…(yadda yadda)"
    That is just not true! Please Wiki "marriage" and read "History of Marriage by Culture". Please note line 2: "The way in which a marriage is conducted and its rules and ramifications has changed over time, as has the institution itself, depending on the culture or demographic of the time." Marriage is not static.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  29. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40
    Homophobia-(Wiki def)"Definitions refer variably to antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, and irrational fear. Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of a perceived homosexual or in some cases any non-heterosexual orientation"
    This is the foundation of anti-gay laws. Denying gays the right to marry is fueled by this. Any blog comments concerning same-sex marriage is filled with this sentiment.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  30. JeremiahA40

    @ProfMTH "…defining marriage in a way that necessarily excludes opposite-sex couples that either cannot or will not have children "hits every nail straight on the head"?"

    I am sorry but no one is defining marriage. Rather we are recognizing what the core feature of marriage has always been-the spouses have been male and female. So opposite-sex couples who do not have children are not necessarily excluded.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  31. JeremiahA40

    @mystercy1 "Society already defines marriage."

    Society recognized marriage and set up laws to protect what already existed. Marriage and families construct culture. Families are the building blocks of society and, therefore, are prior to society.

    "Their reliance on homophobia to carry the cause is losing."

    Please clarify what you mean by homophobia. The case for marriage is based on secular and religious arguments, not on "homophobia."

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  32. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40
    I produced this list because you claimed the pro same-sex marriage movement is "empty and untenable" which it clearly is not. The opposition is now on the defensive with DOMA being declared unconstitutional by the 2nd Circuit Courts, the president and the Attorney General unwilling to defend it and legislation pending to repeal it. Anti gay groups are the ones finding their arguments empty and untenable and they know it. Their reliance on homophobia to carry the cause is losing.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  33. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40
    "Polygamy is right around the corner" Polygamists have every right to challenge the federal laws against its practice. I have no opinion or knowlege of their legal position other than it is more of a church/state matter than an individual liberty issue. The prohibition of same-sex must be remedied on its own merits. Whether it influences future litigation is not its concern, nor should it be of the courts. Justice is blind.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  34. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40

    .."if society defines marriage, marriage has no core features and will be morphed at will."
    Society already defines marriage. The concept of marriage is not set in stone & has morphed over the years to align with societal demands. Disallowing gay marriage is the continuation of arcane laws designed to ostracize and villafy the LGBT community. From job and housing discrimination, anti-sodomy laws and exclusion from the military homophobia is losing its oppressive grip.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  35. mystercy

    @JeremiahA40
    "I also know that state and federal courts have also upheld marriage and its natural tie to procreation"
    When a judge states that the government's desire to promote procreation as a valid reason for infringing on the rights of gay men and lesbians they are being very disingenuous. A marriage license does not require couples to produce children. If marriage is the most suitable arrangement for the rearing of children, wouldn't it follow that gay parents should be allowed to marry?

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  36. Profmth Mitch

    (con't) @thereprieve "No, obviously I haven't. And I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that you haven't either."

    Despite your ignorance of my experience, you try to comfort yourself in ignorance by asserting that I have no personal experience of discrimination or oppression for being homosexual. Go fly a kite–I'd use appropriately stronger & plainer language if this were my channel. For a while you had fooled me into believing that you were different, but I've seen your true colors here.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  37. the reprieve

    @thereprieve – So I'll take your advice and I'll even ignore your cheap shots (like: Unlike you, though, I appreciated it when people did me the service of pointing it out to me). And I'll offer some advice in return… If you want people to stop treating you in a certain manner, whatever it may be, perhaps you should demonstrate that desired treatment when you are dealing with others.

    And with that, you may have the last word should you desire.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  38. Profmth Mitch

    @thereprieve "It's obvious by your replies that you still harbor some biggotry against white Christian men."

    LOL! I spent most of my life as a white Christian man. My partner–the person I love most in the world–is a white Christian man. Your desperate attempts to extricate yourself from the swamp of asininity and ignorance you have mired yourself in here by falsely portraying me as a bigot is both transparent and pathetic.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply
  39. the reprieve

    @thereprieve – "The LGBT civil rights movement was sparked by an uprising against that oppressive treatment. Tell me, did you ever face that as a heterosexual?"

    No, obviously I haven't. And I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that you haven't either. You've read about gays being oppressed or beaten… or even killed… but you've done just fine. Other than the fact that you couldn't legally be married until recently.

    March 5, 2022 at 8:08 am Reply

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